Curse

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Agreed, I would really love to see what our non-english speaking comrades think of this update. I won't assume any of their reactions, but I'm very curious to see how this update is received in Europe and Asia collectively. Not just the members who post here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

Not only that several skills have effects that apply only when the target is moving, previously monsters wouldnt move all that much, especially casters or rangers.

Stuff like Water Trident now might have a purpose in PvE. Yay for water magic!

Yamat · Nov 13, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

Not at all. I'm excercising my right as a consumer to have an open opinion on a product. Their product was flawed. That's their fault, not mine. Their AI update was a screw up to fix a previous flaw and introduced a whole new one and people are complaining. In response to this I don't need the very person who is meant to be addressing my complaint telling me I'm not supposed to eat a cheese sandwich at my PC.

Ok, Memphis I've been biting my tongue all day because of your posts. I really hope you aren't this stupid in real life for your sake and all those around you.

Gaile has admitted they messed up with the invinci-monk. Just goes to show what happens when clever people put their mind to things--the invinci-monk build was genius and I salute the person who invented it. However, it's not what GW is about, and not what ANet want from the game. The game is intended to be played by a team, be that a team of people, or one person with a group of henchies. There was an exploit, and now ANet are trying to fix it.

I for one, and I'm not alone, like to feel I deserve my rewards in a game. I like nothing better than to come through a tough fight having won. Therefore, anything that makes the AI of this game tougher and more like a semi-decent human player is a great thing for the game. It will give the game longevity and make it fun.

If you want a game that is so easy to play that you can do the equivalent of solo-ing end-game areas while eating, please go and play tic-tac-toe. Oh, and please stop posting your flame-bait here.

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

Lol. You mean that the game is now much harder that its impossible to play through without concentration?

So you want to be able to sit there with your monitor off and mash keys like a mindless monkey?

Where did I say that? I said I don't need to be told how I play my games and with eating while playing specifically mentioned twice now I felt within my rights to milk the whole the a little more and base my point on it. Apologies you missed it, however that's not my fault now is it. Some people like to play casually and yes, sometimes when I play with guildies we play VERY casually as we all have lives, run homes and sometimes can't sit glued to a beige coloured box for hours on end. Gaile was entitled to her insinuation that I sit at my pc munching pizzas and I was entitled to mine.
[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

So I guess you wont be playing a game like half life (10 years old? lmao? Half life was released in nov. 1998). That requires moving your mouse to a very specific position to do the most damage possible while trying to position yourself behind objects so you can take less damage.

I happen to be an avid FPS player having played everything from Spear of Destiny through to Far Cry and Quake 4. I'm simply making the point that this so called AI update was no such thing and that even after the update, the AI is as dumb as bus load of bricks.
[/quote]

Quote:

What Anet did is the equivelent of moving the AI from standing up in waving infront of a machine gun to getting behind cover and out of the field of fire.

Rubbish. I'm sorry but all they changed was that monsters don't hold aggro so a solo player can kill them easily. I again am free to state my opinion that this was a farming nerf and not an AI update. Made even more obvious by the faults being found now and being told that 'further updates' are on the way. Until then we're forced to play a badly bugged game.

Quote:

Removing exploited abilities of AI's is a good thing. AI casters shouldnt try to cast through backfire or soul leech for instance, or stand in the middle of AOE's. Remember Anet isnt coding AI to operate just 7-10 weapons but an AI that can handle the cause and effect of over 450 skills.

Skills don't come into it. It's movement that has been changed. And yes they do cast through backfire still. Henchmen still stand in lava. In fact everything that needed to be updated regarding the opponant Ai hasn't been touched in the slightest. Why is that I ask? Hmmmm let me think....

Yamat · Nov 13, 2005, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feminist Terrorist

I don't care what farmers are doing, since it doesn't affect me directly.

So you never buy anything in game? Farmers are causing the prices of everything to increase.

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

Skills don't come into it. It's movement that has been changed.

Uh...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANet

* Improved AI so that henchmen and monsters can now detect and flee from area-effect damage spells.

That has nothing to do with skills, then...

Huh... I... well...

Guardian of the Light · Nov 13, 2005, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the Update Notes as few days ago. How many times have you guys gotten mad at the Henchies? And haven't you felt just a tiny bit cheesy when you cast an AoE Spell like Fire Storm, knowing it that the monsters were going to stand there like lumps, taking it until they died?

"Hey, there, my Charr buddy, did you notice your fur was flaming and your teeth were melting?"

"Why yes, my stalwart comrade, I did note that uncomfortable fact. But you know, I'm just too dense to up and move my furry behind out of this torrential downpour of spells. I think I'll just stay here and expire."

How fun is it? Sort of like taking candy from a baby, isn't it? I never wanted to feel sorry for my enemies; I just wanted to feel powerful when I smited them. So if the monster enemies are actually more on par with a real player, isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that make accomplishments more meaningful?

And for those who are concerned (I won't say "whining" but others have

) about farming, why in Dwayna's name do you think you should be able to solo some of the highest level areas to farm? How realistic is that expectation? I mean, if you could in the past -- and if that wasn't intended or balanced -- does that mean it should be left for players to do so indefinitely? No criticism for farmers, not at all. But in a game built on strategy and teamwork, like Guild Wars, it simply doesn't seem to me that it's reasonable to ask to play the highest end content as a solo player.

In the end, though, my opinions aside, we tested these changes for some time and the consensus was that they were reasonable and fair. We are most definitely listening to all your feedback and will certainly be willing to consider future changes in the interest of game improvement.

Gaile you have made some good points however lets not forget you've made a few ppl mad such as:
1. Nukers
2. Smiters
3. Farmers
4. Ppl stuck on certain missions

I agree farming gratted a lot of money to the farmers but you need that kind of money making sceem to get these kind of items

I bought this game because it wasn't based on time spent playing and I STILL HAVE TO SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS TO GET OVERPRICED ITEMS AND GET CERTIAN SKILLS

.

I am currently considing leaving Guild Wars and buying Age of Empires 3 instead of getting Chapter 2.

Draygo Korvan · Nov 13, 2005, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

Where did I say that? I said I don't need to be told how I play my games and with eating while playing specifically mentioned twice now I felt within my rights to milk the whole the a little more and base my point on it. Apologies you missed it, however that's not my fault now is it. Some people like to play casually and yes, sometimes when I play with guildies we play VERY casually as we all have lives, run homes and sometimes can't sit glued to a beige coloured box for hours on end. Gaile was entitled to her insinuation that I sit at my pc munching pizzas and I was entitled to mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

Games are a pastime and not a full time job where both my hands need to be at the keyboard constantly for hours on end. This is my hobby. I play because it's enjoyable. I DO NOT want to be staring into a screen constantly and concentrating so hard my eyes bleed.

I take that as, I dont want to have to concentrate at all. Because Guild Wars is really not that much harder as a result of this update.

Quote:

I happen to be an avid FPS player having played everything from Spear of Destiny through to Far Cry and Quake 4. I'm simply making the point that this so called AI update was no such thing and that even after the update, the AI is as dumb as bus load of bricks.

Avid FPS player? Sorry, Half Life AI is far worse than GW AI, even if you take out consideration that half life AI can only do 1 or 2 things offensively. All AI are dumb period. It is almost impossible to code an AI to adapt to every situation possible. The reason AI will never be smart enough is because of predictability as to what the AI will do in response to something you do.

Quote:

Rubbish. I'm sorry but all they changed was that monsters don't hold aggro so a solo player can kill them easily.

Why are you playing 2 sides of an arguement, you say somehow the game is now requireing too much concentration that you're eyes bleed and yet you go on to say that the ai is still too retarded?

=WM= Azrael · Nov 13, 2005, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Wow, 61 pages in before I got to say something... So here goes-

1) PERHAPS we should have stayed in beta a LITTLE longer instead of rushing the game out like SWG?

2) While I'm all for the "adaptive gameplay" of GW, I distinctly remember posting up my guilds list of requests back in MARCH that many other guild leaders requested at the same time was for some NPC's with some brains. Were all still waiting... and waiting. Quit nerfing the decent builds for a few days and maybe make an NPC worth taking and then maybe that would fix the soloing "problem."

3.) Truthfully, Im all for an intelligent enemy that runs away from firestorm.. like the Dwarves, Tengu, Charr etc. In reality only a DAT is dumb enough to sit around in an arty barrage and pretend nothing is happening, so I guess I can handle it in the game. But again, in return I would really like my NPC monk to heal me once in awhile in combat, especially when its just me and her!

BTW- I fully agree with Feminist Terrorist- I really dont care about PvP in the least since Im on dial up and it makes it quite difficult to do anything against the cable and DSL clientele. I do enjoy my PvE immensely- except every wednesday when I dread finding out what aspect of my character got cut to accomodate the PvP crowd yet again.

Feminist Terrorist · Nov 13, 2005, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

So you never buy anything in game? Farmers are causing the prices of everything to increase.

I rarely buy things from other people. I use collector items, things I've found/salvaged and drops. At times I'll buy things from traders; things I need and don't have time to "shop" for. In any case, that wasn't my main point, which was that I'm not having fun anymore, and having fun was the reason I play GW.

Aeon_Xin · Nov 13, 2005, 07:22 AM // 07:22

I guess I'm one cause I'm asking, but what is a "pug"?

I've tried to figure it out from context, from posts all over the place, and I just can't do it.

While I do agree with some of what you say Memphis, you really need to work on your delivery if you want anyone to listen for any length of time. We all have a right to rant and rave, but if you complain and counterpoint things people say with decency and respect, it goes a LONG way.

I know I'm putting my foot in my mouth even for my posts here, even though I'm trying to keep it mellow.

twicky_kid · Nov 13, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Gaile you have made some good points however lets not forget you've made a few ppl mad such as:
1. Nukers
2. Smiters
3. Farmers
4. Ppl stuck on certain missions

I agree farming gratted a lot of money to the farmers but you need that kind of money making sceem to get these kind of items

I bought this game because it wasn't based on time spent playing and I STILL HAVE TO SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS TO GET OVERPRICED ITEMS AND GET CERTIAN SKILLS

.

I am currently considing leaving Guild Wars and buying Age of Empires 3 instead of getting Chapter 2.

you can attribute those prices on farmers. at least the absorption you can. sup vigor is really just vanity since its only a 9 hp difference and 70k more. not worth it. black dye has always been expensive and peaked at 45k. i think 8.5k is a big improvement since then. now if we can take the farmers out of the picture and deflate the econemy image what those prices would be. just be thankful they capped prices at 100k. absorption woud be way past 100k by now if it wasn't capped.

Ileania · Nov 13, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

[QUOTE

I bought this game because it wasn't based on time spent playing and I STILL HAVE TO SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS TO GET OVERPRICED ITEMS AND GET CERTIAN SKILLS

[/QUOTE]
That would be due to farming, with the amount of gold being poured into the economy what do u exsepct the traders prices to be at? They go according to what people are paying for them. Think about it this way, if your in a place where the minimun wage is 5.15 an hour a 2 bedroom home will cost somewhere around 400-500 a month, while in a place with a 7.50 an hour min its more like 750-850... understand? if not ill try to be a little more detailed

twicky_kid · Nov 13, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

I guess I'm one cause I'm asking, but what is a "pug"?

I've tried to figure it out from context, from posts all over the place, and I just can't do it.

i've heard different acronyms for it. i use public united group.

Feminist Terrorist · Nov 13, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

I guess I'm one cause I'm asking, but what is a "pug"?

I've tried to figure it out from context, from posts all over the place, and I just can't do it.

Pick Up Group. All these acronyms can be hard to learn and remember.

Lugosi · Nov 13, 2005, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

the devs have this all planned out from the beggining. everything worked out then they release game. 3 weeks into game players find a way to solo and emass huge fortunes in a matter of days.

And that despite of alpha-testing and month-long closed beta-testing paired with one weekend a month open betas for pre-orders/people with access-keys. Even during the very last beta before release updates came in every 5 minutes, which was still the case when the game went gold. Several skills had been removed, rendered not as effective as they were before or even made an elite (hundred blades).
All of that gave me (and others) the impression that they should have maybe prolongued beta-testing instead of rushing into release, since obviously a lot of things were still in need of tweaking or changing.
But yes, I admit that the already existing player-base had been aching for the release, since one weekend a month simply didn't cut it

So the game was released, and minor fixes here, major fixes there, some things never got fixed up to now...and now suddenly, seven months after release (plus alpha- and beta-testing before), the devs at ANet realize that the AI wasn't the way they wanted it to be? Well, that took some time I guess.

How did they realize that it needed to be different? If I read Gaile's statements right they got feedback about the monsters being too stupid, so that must have opened their eyes.

Now...looking at this thread, looking at the petititions and reading what people type in the gamechat, I would roughly approximate that 75% of the players think that this update was unnecessary and that they are not happy with it, for various reasons. Which leads me to the conclusion that only around 25% of the players had a problem with how the game was before.
Now *this* leads to the conclusion that Anet listens to a few people who complain about something that the majority is happy with, and changes it, so that now the majority isn't happy but the few, formerly complaining people, are very happy about. Doesn't really make sense to me.

I mean, ok, I see it like this:
If people are unhappy then they will give feedback about that. And that is what ANet got from whoever wasn't happy with how the game was.
And that was probably all the feedback ANet ever got, because...if you're happy with the game, do you send ANet mails, telling them every day about how happy you are with how the game is? I don't.

But right now Anet gets a lot of feedback from unhappy players, and maybe they should consider the possibility that in fact the people who were formerly unhappy were just a few, compared to how many aren't happy now. And if ANet really listens to their players (not only those who say amen to each and everything) it should matter.

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Ok, Memphis I've been biting my tongue all day because of your posts. I really hope you aren't this stupid in real life for your sake and all those around you.

Gaile has admitted they messed up with the invinci-monk. Just goes to show what happens when clever people put their mind to things--the invinci-monk build was genius and I salute the person who invented it. However, it's not what GW is about, and not what ANet want from the game. The game is intended to be played by a team, be that a team of people, or one person with a group of henchies. There was an exploit, and now ANet are trying to fix it.

I for one, and I'm not alone, like to feel I deserve my rewards in a game. I like nothing better than to come through a tough fight having won. Therefore, anything that makes the AI of this game tougher and more like a semi-decent human player is a great thing for the game. It will give the game longevity and make it fun.

If you want a game that is so easy to play that you can do the equivalent of solo-ing end-game areas while eating, please go and play tic-tac-toe. Oh, and please stop posting your flame-bait here.

Where did I specifically mention invincimonks and that I want an easy game?
Noone wants an easy game. What's the point?
If I wanted something easy and could play with my eyes closed I'd load Doom, type IDDQD and never need to buy another game in my life.

I agree that games shoudl be rewarding and there is indeed no sense in playing one that is otherwise. Although I will stress that different people have entirely different views on what rewarding actually is. Some people may indeed cheat their way through a game and find it 'rewarding'.

Bottom line is the entire game mechanics cannot cope with this update with regard to the casual player as everyone know's PUGS can be as uncoordinated as a bunch of blind crabs dancing the tango on crutches.

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Having played SWG as well (regretfully), GW isn't nearly as bad. Not even close.

I've seen many people complain about henchmen, even before this update. I did just about the entire game with henchmen on my Mesmer. The missions I joined a PUG for were: Iron Mines of Moladune, Thunderhead Keep, and Ring of Fire. Even Abbadon's Mouth was done with me & 7 henchies. I'm not a hardcore player either, I play maybe 2-3 hours a day total. And that's split up over all day, not just a 5 hour evening.

I freely admit I've been frustrated with the AI at times.

"Why, Alesia, do you run AWAY from me when I run TO you so you can HEAL me?!"

"Claude! You're at half life! Now is NOT the time to Blood Ritual Orion!"

Frustrating and challenging, but not impossible. It's not the easiest thing to control the henchies either. I definitely recommend using 'ctrl+action' to call targets rather than just 'action'. They're much more responsive, and focusing all your henchies on one target can take things out quick.

Don't despair, henchies are good enough, but you have to be 100% the leader. They're not gonna see 4 red dots and decide to take out the Stone Summit Heretic first on their own.

This thread was in response to =WM= Azrael. God this thread is active at 2:30 am.

Yamat · Nov 13, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Lugosi, no flame intended, but I think you need to go back to page 1 of this thread and start reading. You seem to have missed every single point here.

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Uh...

That has nothing to do with skills, then...

Huh... I... well...

I was referring to the fact that the AI hasn't been changed regarding the use of their own skills. Orion still casts Firestorm and mobs still use the skills they always did, as they always did.

The movement code has however been changed to make it flee from a spell that registers as AoE damage.

twicky_kid · Nov 13, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugosi

And that despite of alpha-testing and month-long closed beta-testing paired with one weekend a month open betas for pre-orders/people with access-keys. Even during the very last beta before release updates came in every 5 minutes, which was still the case when the game went gold. Several skills had been removed, rendered not as effective as they were before or even made an elite (hundred blades).
All of that gave me (and others) the impression that they should have maybe prolongued beta-testing instead of rushing into release, since obviously a lot of things were still in need of tweaking or changing.
But yes, I admit that the already existing player-base had been aching for the release, since one weekend a month simply didn't cut it

So the game was released, and minor fixes here, major fixes there, some things never got fixed up to now...and now suddenly, seven months after release (plus alpha- and beta-testing before), the devs at ANet realize that the AI wasn't the way they wanted it to be? Well, that took some time I guess.

How did they realize that it needed to be different? If I read Gaile's statements right they got feedback about the monsters being too stupid, so that must have opened their eyes.

Now...looking at this thread, looking at the petititions and reading what people type in the gamechat, I would roughly approximate that 75% of the players think that this update was unnecessary and that they are not happy with it, for various reasons. Which leads me to the conclusion that only around 25% of the players had a problem with how the game was before.
Now *this* leads to the conclusion that Anet listens to a few people who complain about something that the majority is happy with, and changes it, so that now the majority isn't happy but the few, formerly complaining people, are very happy about. Doesn't really make sense to me.

I mean, ok, I see it like this:
If people are unhappy then they will give feedback about that. And that is what ANet got from whoever wasn't happy with how the game was.
And that was probably all the feedback ANet ever got, because...if you're happy with the game, do you send ANet mails, telling them every day about how happy you are with how the game is? I don't.

But right now Anet gets a lot of feedback from unhappy players, and maybe they should consider the possibility that in fact the people who were formerly unhappy were just a few, compared to how many aren't happy now. And if ANet really listens to their players (not only those who say amen to each and everything) it should matter.

this game has a directional goal. when the invisimonk came it destroyed everything they had planned. now they had to focus on fixing a huge problem that many people liked. so do you let it slide and let the problem eventually kill the game before its time or do you fix it and piss some or majority of you players off?

i'm happy they took a stand. before now they have been bending to the player's will and now they are trying to get back on track with orginal goal. only the devs know what that is and for us to find out later. one thing i really love is they not only say no they enforce it unlike other games have (D2).

play the game and enjoy it. if you don't enjoy it give it a break for a while and come back. if you don't want to come back you can always sell your account for time spent and give someone else a shot at the game.